Building a tech team with Georgina Owens

In this talk we delve into the challenges and traps of building tech teams in different companies. We discuss what key tech competences are required in the financial industry today as well as which sourcing strategies actually work. Last but not least, we talk about choosing the right IT partner and share tips on building a tech team.
Our guest is Georgina Owens, CTO at Liberis, Top UK CIO 100 2019 and 2020, UK Top 50 Most Influential Women in Tech 2020 and 2021 and Women in IT Awards nominee and winner.

Michał Grela: Hello and welcome to yet another episode of IT insights. My guest today is Georgina Owens and I have great pleasure to talking to co at liberies top UK CIO 100 years 2019 2020 UK top 50 most influential woman in tech 2020 and 2021 and woman in IT awards nominating winner that’s That’s plenty of recognition, George. Thank you for for joining me here for this short discussion.

Georgina Owens: Thank you. I’m I’m very happy to be here.

Michał Grela: Kevin, can you give us please a little bit more context on, you know, what’s your background, what what you do?

Georgina Owens: Um, yeah, certainly. Uh, so I’ve worked u across multiple different industries um telco, finance, media um primarily in um large organ large enterprise organizations um up until about uh six years ago when I when I made the move to smaller size startup kind of organizations. Um and now working in a a scale up fintech um but also you know spending a lot of time mentoring um with founders and um smaller organizations. So it’s been been an interesting journey um you know going from huge hundred 000 companies down now to a 220 company. But what’s what’s really what’s really interesting is actually the challenges don’t change. Um they they change a little bit on scale, but primarily um you know, when you’re dealing with people, when you’re dealing with um building stuff and and supporting stuff, you know, it it’s very similar. There’s a lot a lot of similarities that you can you can carry around in your toolbox.

Michał Grela: That’s that’s firstly very impressive and ext ensive experience uh and thanks for sharing that context. Um and and I had some sort of understanding that you that your experience in in leading a multi-disipline teams of you know up to definitely above thousand uh across global locations and I’m I’m very keen on expanding a little bit more on that. How did you I don’t know manage uh cultural differences or I don’t know um the fact that people were in different locations or distributed teams Um can you can you tell us something more about that?

Georgina Owens: Yeah, it’s interesting because um you know larger teams across the different locations um that was pre- pandemic and uh we didn’t have the whole remote working that we have now which of course um uh actually is quite similar to when you’re working with lots of remote teams because um you can’t get on a plane all the time and and be there. So when I look back back, you know, I was working sort of working remotely the remote model um across different across those different geographies. But the big difference was with different cultures and for me um you know I was I was working with Indian offshore organizations um in the when it was still relatively new um when not very many companies were doing it. Uh and because because I had that experience that’s kind of dictated my career because anyone that was looking for that experience um there weren’t many people around so I sort of sort of ended up getting those roles and and it just grew and grew from there and and the thing that I find is critical is really taking the time to understand the culture you know so if you’ve got a team in India if you got a team in Romania if you got a team in Poland if you got a team in the US culturally they’re all very very different,

Michał Grela: oh yeah Oh yeah.

Georgina Owens: And I think you you need to do your research. I think it’s really important to do your research. Um and one of the things that I found was really successful is when I was working with a new team in a new country is ask them what their challenges are

Michał Grela: just straight away.

Georgina Owens: Yeah. Just go well straight placing. Yeah. But then start to start to have some some group meetings with everybody at all levels and say what are your challenges you know not from a work point of view but from a life point of view what are the things that you have to think about um and and you know one very real example in in India when everyone was going into the office travel was always a massive massive challenge um especially if you were working somewhere where you uh well most of the most of the organizations worked to the time zone of the country that they’re in, you know, which meant that that they’d be leaving the office at sort of, you know, very late at night and you can’t, you know, the the public transport’s just not there. And that, you know, that that was a huge thing for all of the people and and by not making sure that that was fixed um you know, that would have an impact on your teams uh and their motivation. So, understanding understanding what those problems are, doing your research, um making, you know, really the the other the other issue with with working across geographies is you can tend to just have one interface. Um I think, you know, I’ve always taken the time to go and visit and and just talk to everybody and be be available um to interact with everybody in the team.

Michał Grela: That’s very interesting experience of working with an offshore provider. But but but that guess but I guess that that that works well in the in the context of let’s say global enterprise or kind of organizations. But you said previously that it’s it’s funny how the the the challenges regardless this the size or the scale you name it regardless the challenges are very similar. So what would be like the one challenge you could bring up like as as as a challenge that is relevant to all kinds of organizations that you were facing?

Georgina Owens: Um the culture you want to build within an organization. What are your values? Um being clear about what your values are. Um and not only being clear what they are, communicate them and stick to them. So um you know I I have some really key values um around no blame culture. I I I I will not tolerate fingerpointing. Um I really detest siloed working. Um where people don’t take accountability for um not just themselves but for their colleagues and therefore don’t collaborate and work across teams. Um so you know that is my fundamental value and therefore it it’s it’s how I want to work and it’s how I want the people within my teams to work as well and I will always take the time to have that conversation that discussion uh again with everybody in the team. I um will walk around the team either physically or virtually uh and I will introduce myself to people and I will sit and I will chat them chat with them and get to know with them. Um even in even in the kind of thousand person team okay I couldn’t meet every single person but by pulling them together in a town hall I could stand in front of them and I could make myself available and I could um make sure that my layers of management had those same values. and um acted and behaved in that same way. And that was that was me living through them into the team because you know I mean I could have taken the time to to meet every single person but I probably wouldn’t have got anything else done but um that’s that’s that’s for me is is the my top tip. It’s no good saying you know oh we really believe that we don’t have a blame culture and then the next day this broke who broke Okay. Who who was responsible? You know, that is that is not living your values. That is that is clear.

Michał Grela: Yeah. You clearly have to walk the talk. And I really like the bit you said about values that actually have to be translatable and visible clearly visible in actions and and behaviors without without this walking the talk is just empty words. It’s silly. And I I wonder how because the topic of this conversation, the high level topic of this conversation was to be building a tech team and you started with with this very important statement that you have to start building the team with the culture in mind first or with the culture first approach and I wonder how do you how do you do that when you when your goal is to or when the challenge you’re facing is to pull together a team that’s never worked with with with themselves these people never worked with themselves with each other before how can you even know can how do you set up a culture in an environment like that can you just bring them all up in the town hall and say these are values we should be pursuing or how do you come up with you know with with something like culture isn’t something that’s built you know down up and how is that applicable to all of these scenarios

Georgina Owens: yeah it has to be it has to be top down um for sure um and um I think when you’re when you’re building a team having a very clear operating model um defined and explaining that to people, you know. So, if I make if I make some decisions about the way that I want to structure things, um being able to justify why I’m doing that and why I’m making those decisions, I think, is number one. Um and, you know, I can give you some really some really tangible examples where I’ve had people come to me and say, “Well, I don’t think I should be in this part of the team. I don’t think I should be, you know, somewhere else in the team.” And and I’ve said why do you think that? Well, I can’t do my job where I am and I I’ve asked the question, what’s stopping you from doing the job where you are? Um because as far as I’m concerned, we’re one big team and you know we achieve through influence and collaboration. So who is stopping you from doing your job where you are and what difference does it make? Um and that that leads to some kind of blank faces. because there isn’t really an answer to that. Um, that doesn’t mean that I won’t change my mind, that, you know, I won’t make tweaks and changes to a structure if we think it’s the right thing to do for the right reasons, but it’s not because it’s not going to be because um, oh, I don’t think I should be positioned here, I should be positioned somewhere else. Um, you know, and and it’s having those open and frank conversations with people, you know, sometimes difficult. You know, people are challenging and they’re challenging because of the right reason. But, you know, you’ve got to you’ve got to you got to be able to have those conversations um and be willing be willing to explain yourself and why you’ve made the decisions you’ve made.

Michał Grela: That’s that’s very interesting how you perceive the role of a leader. It it clearly appears that you believe leader is is accountable for or or should have this very human- centered approach and and putting people first approach. Uh priority izing this this people aspect within a team and I understand you know that’s that’s a tip you can give to focus on the culture and and put people first. So what would be your um let’s say thing to avoid what we can recommend avoiding when when setting up a team?

Georgina Owens: Um yes I I’ll come to that. I think um human- centered and all of the things that that you mentioned absolutely uh but also have KPIs right you know it can’t just be soft skills, although they’re very very important, I think it’s equally as important to have your your measures and your KPIs to ensure that you’ve got the data to show that you’re being successful. Um, so I didn’t didn’t want to um lose that point. Um, what should you avoid? I think um taking too many ideas uh and it’s really it’s really easy to be influenced um um you know when when you’re in a fastm moving environment and doubting doubting decisions that you’ve made. Um so so there’s a balance between being don’t be too rigid but then also don’t just kind of um change too quickly without really thinking it through as well. And that’s another that’s another um really difficult leadership challenge when when people when people are criticizing you and criticizing you know perhaps the way that that you’ve set things up and maybe don’t have belief in in in the way that you’re leading your team. You you’ve got to you’ve got to stand firm and that’s why you need the KPIs and the data. You’ve got to stand firm um behind the decisions that you’ve made and behind the team, you know, that you’re supporting, but don’t be too rigid. Um so, so it’s a it’s a balance. It’s

Michał Grela: Yeah, it’s all about striking the balance and avoiding uh extremums. So, would say uh anything that’s extreme is perhaps not not perceived as welcome regardless the context of course especially here

Georgina Owens: and when you’ve got a junior management team what you will see with them is they will come to you and say oh this is not working I think I should change it this is not working I should change it this is not working and it’s like okay we can change it but let’s think about why you want to change it you know and what’s going to be the impact cuz um you know if you too many times then that causes instability and then the rest of the team just think well we don’t know which way we’re going because we keep changing direction.

Michał Grela: Let’s put a spotlight on the financial industry for a sec now for for the another for another question. What are the key let’s say tech competencies that being most necessary in the financial industry today from your point of view as you know running a tech team at a tech fintech scale up?

Georgina Owens: Yeah, I thought about this quite a lot. Is is there is there any difference in um specific competences required? Maybe there’s there’s there’s no differences. I think it’s always good to have um knowledge of the industry that you’re in.

Michał Grela: A domain driven kind of backup background.

Georgina Owens: Yes. Yes. A domain driven background. But that doesn’t preclude you from hiring somebody from um from a different background because they will bring a different perspective. Now there are some Um there are some um industries that just don’t don’t transfer and don’t mix. Um you know and and as an example for that I I would think about health tech.

Michał Grela: Yeah.

Georgina Owens: You’ll find that people and um edtech you’ll find that people that are in health tech and edtech are tending to do it more as a um a like a mission um driven by different let’s say drivers. Yes. Yes. Um not not applicable in other industries.,

Michał Grela: Yeah, presumably.

Georgina Owens: Yeah. And likewise people that go into gaming, right?

Michał Grela: Yeah. Yeah.

Georgina Owens: It’s because they’re very

Michał Grela: mind mindset. Yeah.

Georgina Owens: But somebody told me that fintech wasn’t sexy. And you know what? I just don’t believe that for

Michał Grela: Is it sexy?

Georgina Owens: Of course it’s sexy.

Michał Grela: So how would you if if you were to build like a t tech team from from scratch, what sort who would you need in a in a in an ideal world, in a perfect scenario, how would you set it all up?

Georgina Owens: Um I think for for me I’ just look at the, you know, the end-to-end delivery of um technology. So, you’ve got your your foundational services around your employee support, your management of your suppliers, you know, your your um your basics around service management SLAs’s. You’ve also then got your um your your data, your architecture, your security. Um and then you’ve of course you’ve got your engineering team, um your your um QA, tech ops, DevOps, um you know and all of those different roles um are required across across all the industries. I mean that’s where I was trying to think about is there anything that you wouldn’t have of those roles in any in any industry and I think those are your sort of basics that you require

Michał Grela: universal yeah the is the foundation I guess is applicable to any industry any vertical it’s vertical agnostic I guess but uh again regardless of the vertical the digital transformation let’s say take or approach seems like one and only direction for companies that want to develop and grow, you just have to to be digitally uh uh driven. Yeah. And but at the same time, there’s a huge gap to bridge when it comes to know IT skills available and there’s plenty of sourcing approaches to do that. How do you tackle your um IT skills gap challenges? What’s your sourcing strategy?

Georgina Owens: I think for me there’s two two things. There’s smart sourcing and then there’s um right sizing. Uh and I think one of the things that you have to to decide first is what what is the blend that you’re going to to go for. Are you wanting to um have 100% fully permanent people, your own people, and that’s it. So, that’s what you’re going to do. Are you going to go for a mix? Do you need flex? What kind of business have you got? You know, do you have a a 7030? So, you got 70% permanent and 30% flex where you’ll be working with a partner, for example. And and then once you’ve worked out what your your blend is then work out how you’re going to source it and that’s where I come up with the smart sourcing part you know so I don’t know do I want to be um let’s say I was a networkheavy organization would I want to be managing that myself or would I want a partner to do that for me if I’ve got um QA QA is another great one right do I want to recruit QA resources do I want to go to a specialist QA organization that’s going to do it for me um engineering um do I want to um hire all my own engineers? Do I want to have a mix from different organizations? If I’m doing something, you know, if I’m if I’m doing a lot of mobile development, do I want to go to a a mobile agency or you know, a digital agency as they as a lot of them call themselves. So, I think it’s it’s really important that you build that model yourself. What is the balance of your own resources and other resources? And then which parts do you want to do yourself and which parts do you want other people to do? And then even beyond that you can have you can have models. You can have fully outsourced model. You can have augmentation model. What works for you? You know managing an outsourcer is very different to having people that you embed within your teams on a more of an augmentation model.

Michał Grela: Definitely indeed it is very different. But My next question is how important is the is the cultural aspect or the c cultural similarities when it comes to choosing the right partner? Because you you said that you would prioritize the culture when setting up a team. Would you also that’s my question prioritize the culture and the cultural feed when choosing the external partner to work with?

Georgina Owens: 100% 100%. Yes. um you know it’s it’s got to be it’s got to be a good fit for you and for the organization. Um you can have a contract you can have an outcome deliver you know an outcome defined contract with KPIs and deliverables but if you don’t get on with the people or if the people don’t get on with your people and they don’t work well together then it’s it’s a useless piece of paper. So yes cultural um fit and you know what I think you go with gut feel um you know you talk you talk to the people you talk to other people that have worked with the company find out what their experience has been um and I think flexibility from from the organization that you’re working with you know test that flexibility really quickly um are they able to to respond to requests that you have um where you need to change direction for example so yeah I think I think all of those things are really important in the partner that you choose

Michał Grela: and I’m really happy you answered that way. I do believe prioritizing culture and culture in the first place is the is something that that brings people together and or or without this let’s say building block without this fundamental context context of offering the same mindset values or consciousness um even if there’s tangible business opportunities the house sooner or later collapses and uh this building is just not um let’s say reliable enough um

Georgina Owens: and I think I think when you you know some of the very very large very very expensive organizations in the past you know the model that they used to try and operate was to come in and really take over you know and direct and and um you know I’ I’ve worked in that environment and it was horrible really wasn’t pleasant at all because you just felt like what they were trying to do was just you know discredit you and your teams all the time to make themselves look better. Uh-huh.

Michał Grela: And that’s that’s not a nice environment to work in.

Georgina Owens: No, you don’t want to be a part of a culture like that.

Michał Grela: U Thank you, Georgina. Any last tips on or lessons learned when it comes to building a tech team that you like to share with our audience?

Georgina Owens: Yeah, I think you know what you need to um you need to to choose people that have got a strong can do attitude. Um you know, that’s that’s kind of really important. Uh and um you know, be able to be able to knock down hurdles when they come up, but in a positive way, you know, through through working through the challenge. Uh, and working again, working collaboratively with other people to find to always find a way forward. Uh, you know, I’m a very positive person. I’m always going to be looking for that sort of um uh same uh skill. an attitude reflected in the people you know that that I want to hire in my team.

Michał Grela: Uh thank you Georgina. Thank you for for sharing that insights. Uh it was very uh very informative and very inspiring for me to to understand your take on that. Uh and thank you our listeners for being with us on this another episode. If you liked it, if you found it useful, don’t hesitate to share it and do let us know if you’d like to have another topic covered in one of the future episodes. That was it insights.